Transcript of podcast:
Welcome to the Wealthwoke podcast. I’m Elian Wiener, your host and founder of Wealthwoke. Wealthwoke is a community of people who are on a quest to redefine their concept of wealth and relationships with money.
Elian Wiener: On this journey we explore the growing realization that there are several dimensions of wealth, including physical, financial, spiritual, career, relationship, and community. I invite you to join us on this journey where we tackle issues ranging from investing, purpose, to lifestyle.
Elian Wiener: I hope you enjoy this podcast. If you do, go wealthwoke.com to enjoy more great content.
Elian Wiener: Welcome to the latest Wealthwoke podcast. I’m so grateful that you’ve taken the time to listen to this episode. As a father of one beautiful daughter, and another on the way very shortly, fatherhood is a subject close to my heart. Being a father in today’s world is complicated, and it’s made even harder by the fact that there is often a lack of information, discussion, and inspiration around fatherhood.
Elian Wiener: One man looking to change that is Philipp Hartmann. Besides being an entrepreneur Philipp was in the extraordinary position of becoming a father five times in 13 months. His experience has led him to start a project that aims to kickstart a new global narrative around the role of dads, promoting an equal partner strategy for family success.
Elian Wiener: I’m so pleased to be sitting down with Philipp in his beautiful home in Kommetjie.
Elian Wiener: Philipp, let’s start with your story of how you came to be the father of five young children?
Philipp H: That’s a good one. Hi, and thank you for inviting me on the show.
Philipp H: So, what happened to us was that we adopted two babies at the age of six months, literally within ten days. They called us and they’re like, “Are you still keen?” We had forgotten about the fact that we wanted to do kangaroo parenting originally, because my wife had a pregnancy, didn’t work, was very traumatic. We were still on the list for the kangaroo parenting.
Philipp H: Anyways, we ended up adopting these children and then within six months of having adopted them my wife fell pregnant with triplets.
Elian Wiener: Unbelievable.
Philipp H: Within 13 months we had five, from zero.
Elian Wiener: Tell me, how has the experience been for you this far?
Philipp H: It’s been, I would say, life changing and absolutely amazing. I don’t even know how life was before kids. It is so much fun, I can really just recommend it to everybody.
Elian Wiener: I mean, five kids. What are the biggest challenges that you’ve had to face in your life?
Philipp H: Yeah. That’s a good one. With the kids, yeah. So, I would say there have been different phases, and there still are. In the beginning it was really bringing all these into this world and life.
Philipp H: The triplets, obviously, were born very prem, ten-and-a-half weeks. So, we went through a hectic phase during pregnancy and then, thereafter, in the NICU in the hospitals. One of them actually died the one time, they stopped breathing when they … They had to resuscitate him, you literally pump him … Pump oxygen.
Philipp H: What they do is, when kids are born so early they don’t have a reflex of breathing, so they forget to breathe, literally, and you have to tap the chest. I was, we were sprinting through the house the whole time because of a beeper goes off. It’s very stressful.
Philipp H: So, that was a stressful period in terms of just, you know? I was literally fearful for people dying around me all the time. Like, my wife, it’s a very real possibility that something goes wrong in her triplet pregnancy, and then thereafter the kids. Now I’m lucky that everybody’s healthy.
Philipp H: The challenges now are much more around, I would say, normal family dynamics, but a little bit more on the extreme scale because they’re all pretty much the same age. The twins are now three-and-a-half, and the babies, the triplets are 20 weeks. They’re very close to each other and that plays, is a dynamic in itself. So, that’s regular siblings kind of dynamic.
Philipp H: Then, of course, there are challenges in the relationship because there’s huge change when suddenly there’s five kinds at once-
Elian Wiener: For sure. One kid is a change.
Philipp H: There’s a change when there’s one kid … Of course, you know this. So, you kind of find your roles and there’s different topics introduced into the relationship and you must make sure that you’re still friends and still lovers and still a couple and not just parents. So, there’s a bunch of things, but overall it’s very, very positive.
Elian Wiener: You’re also a business owner, Philipp. How are you able to combine business and the personal side?
Philipp H: Yeah, that’s a good question. So, I’m super lucky. My business partner, Steven, luckily allows me to work from home and he runs the operations. I’m more on the business development and strategy side of things. So, really, I’m on the phone a lot because we work globally, right? So, our customers sit in Germany and Switzerland and we’re here in Cape Town. I’m allowed to work from home and that helps me with the whole overall situation.
Elian Wiener: Now, I’m sure being a almost instant father to five kids you’ve had some time, or you’re really in a great position to think and talk about the topic of fatherhood.
Philipp H: Yeah.
Elian Wiener: Do you think you were prepared for one, let alone five kids?
Philipp H: No, absolutely … I was absolutely not prepared. It’s a big passion, this project of mine, Being Dad, it’s called Being Dad, I realized throughout all these instances of hectic experiences, really, of becoming a father, that there is no content for dads. There’s no inspirational content for dads. There’s a lot of stuff for mothers, and that’s great, no problem. The only problem is there’s nothing for dads.
Philipp H: So, what I set out to do is start a podcast called Being Dad, where I speak to unique dads around the world, asking them to share their experiences as dads in order to inspire other dads to be better fathers. The aim of this project is to facilitate family success.
Philipp H: So, there’s studies on this and it’s obvious, fathers are more involved, families are more successful, and that has direct impact on society.
Elian Wiener: Why do you think we’re in the situation where there’s almost no conversations, or discussions, or information going on for dads versus for moms?
Philipp H: I think it’s a lot because society is changing, or has changed since the ’70s. You have a situation where in the ’70s the feminist movement did a very good job in preparing today’s mothers for multi-optionality. So, mothers can now be full-time mothers, half-time mothers/half-time working mum, or full-time professional woman and mother, and it’s socially accepted, no problem.
Philipp H: For dads … And that’s fine, that’s great, it’s not about positioning against mums, it’s that there’s two different people involved and they have different roles and they’re not competing, I don’t think. The issue is, for dads, this didn’t happen. A lot of dads tie their self-worth to their paycheck and to their career, and so does society. So, dads are providers, or protectors.
Philipp H: In the past dads were also protectors, so you would be sent off, or you would go and fight a war and hack someone to death over some piece of land to protect women and children and your homeland, right?
Philipp H: So, that’s kind of fallen away, we don’t go into battle anymore, at least, a majority of men aren’t. So now there’s provider role, right? Which is great. The issue is just, if there is no optionality, so there needs to be a choice.
Elian Wiener: Yeah, I guess South Africa in particular, if you think it … Just look at our maternity versus paternity leave policies. Some countries in Europe are offering couples the opportunity to split their maternity/paternity leave however way they like, whereas South Africa it’s almost non-existent.
Elian Wiener: I’ve had people say to me, “My wife is due in two weeks time and somebody asked me if I would do some work a day after my child is born.”
Philipp H: Yeah.
Elian Wiener: And it didn’t seem like out of the ordinary.
Philipp H: Yeah, I know. It’s crazy. I think in South Africa, I don’t know the number. If I remember correctly, it’s, like, three days for dads-
Elian Wiener: Three days.
Philipp H: Dads it’s three days, and for mums I think it’s 30 days, or something like that, and that’s too short in any case.
Philipp H: So, what you’re referring to in terms of paternity leave, for instance, in Sweden, if I get it right, the parents have to split equally, or they both have to take paternity leave and maternity leave, parental leave. If they don’t it falls away for both parties.
Philipp H: So that’s really good because if you’re on a career track, say you work for Porsche in Germany, or McKinsey, or wherever, and you’re on a career track and you go and you say to your work buddies, “Hey guys, I have a child. I see you in a year’s time.” “Sure, buddy,” you know? Your career will definitely not continue the same, as a man.
Elian Wiener: Yes. I agree with that.
Philipp H: And so it is also true for women, by the way.
Elian Wiener: Yeah, absolutely.
Philipp H: So, that’s not a problem only men have. In fact, women have this issue a lot. My project, talking to dads is very much focused around women if you think about it because if dads are perceived as a successful strategy for the home, women have more optionality. Because by default today women are more likely to stay with the kids, and that impacts on their career and it also impacts on their choices.
Elian Wiener: Do you think that a lot of fathers out there want a caregiver role, or want a larger caregiver role?
Philipp H: Yeah, I think a lot of fathers want a larger caregiver role. A lot of fathers tell me [inaudible 00:10:24] that I speak about this topic all the time, “Oh, I felt like my wife’s PA. Suddenly I lost all my rights.” Many, many dads tell me that they regret afterwards not having spent enough time with the kids because they’re away for work, but many dads also don’t know how.
Philipp H: In other words, it’s not easy to break through these set ways society still sees parenting roles today.
Elian Wiener: What role do you think that fathers should play? Particularly in the first couple of years of a child’s-
Philipp H: I think it’s very individual, but a general perspective is, be there as a dad 100% and show up. So 90% is just showing up.
Elian Wiener: Showing up.
Philipp H: Showing up and being involved and being interested and spending time with the kids and spending time with intent. So, spending time with purpose.
Elian Wiener: Funny, we had a discussion, a group of entrepreneurs, with a professor from UCT who has been studying fatherhood for a number of years. We started complaining about how we might be falling short or perceptions of what we should be doing, and he did turn around to us at one point, he said, “Listen guys, in South Africa as much as 80% of kids are growing up without a father.”
Philipp H: Yeah
Elian Wiener: Just showing up is a big part of it, right?
Philipp H: Yeah, it’s crazy. It’s a global epidemic of absent fathers.
Philipp H: So, tomorrow I’m speaking to, I think I told you, Warren Farrell. He wrote a book, amongst others, The Boy Crisis, and he talks a lot around what happens [inaudible 00:12:14] particular between men and their sons, but the same applies for daughters, of course. What it does to sons when the fathers are absent. It’s a huge problem globally. It’s a huge problem.
Elian Wiener: You’re right. I mean, some of these kids grow up with fathers who are absent because they just, by choice or by circumstance. The problem is, some people, we’re choosing not to be present because we think we’re expected to have more of a provider role.
Philipp H: Yeah.
Elian Wiener: I guess you land up also in the same situation, right? As someone whose father has left, because you’re just not present.
Philipp H: Yeah. It’s the same, yeah. If you travel all the time to work, it’s a big problem. I spoke to Grant, under the session my podcast was Grant. You know Grant Hatch?
Elian Wiener: Yeah.
Philipp H: He was a very successful businessman. Also an NGO-
Elian Wiener: Yes, that’s right.
Philipp H: So, he works at Accenture and he was in a good investment firm. He had a African role, so he’s traveling through Africa doing very interesting projects. When he got his diagnosis about lung cancer, stage four lung cancer, they literally told him, “You have a few months.” He said, “What must I do? Must I cancel the trip to South of France?” “Oh, no. A few months.” “Okay, wow. I have four kids, 11 to 24, boys.” That’s quite a hectic wake up call.
Philipp H: So when he … And you know, as you know, he’s lived past deadline for a year already, so that’s amazing, but he stopped working and he focused 100% on family and the cancer, and he turned to faith, he’s very faithful now. He said the change was amazing.
Philipp H: What was so interesting, the chat was not so much the cancer, but the cancer as, so the diagnosis as a point in time where he changed. The Grant before, and the Grant after.
Philipp H: Every dad I speak to says, spend the time, really spend the time. Time goes so quick and you forget, you know?
Elian Wiener: Yeah, and you can never get it back. I mean, I guess the question then is, whose responsibility is it to try and change the status quo? Is it each of our personal responsibilities to take action for ourselves in our own lives, or does it need to come … Is it partly a policy issue [crosstalk 00:14:34] government? Where’s this-
Philipp H: It’s a combination of things. A very good question. I think it starts with yourself, so be the change you want to see, right? That’s obvious. I have these negotiations with my wife all the time. Last weekend I wanted to go to a Forest Fest, and I was a bit late. So, I had them put on the group and I was like, “Awesome, I want to go.” But she was in forum, she’s in [inaudible 00:14:59] forum. By the time she got home it was 18:00. I couldn’t call her because she was in forum, right? The phone’s off.
Philipp H: So I’m like, “Okay, I want to go to Forest Fest, but it’s six o’clock, it’s a three hours drive, the kids need to learn how to plant a tree,” it’s important stuff. I want them to sleep in a tent. The twins, three-and-a-half. She kind of like, “Sure, okay. It’s a little bit spontaneous and might be difficult.”
Philipp H: But, she kind of … And we talked about it, it was fine, but in the moment it was very difficult for me. She kind of just like, “Ah, do whatever you want,” and walks away. It’s kind of very clearly telling me that we’re not discussing this topic on eye level and my idea is stupid and she’s already decided that I can’t do it.
Philipp H: But she won’t negotiate with me, or she won’t tell me why she thinks that we should maybe drive tomorrow and just spend one night, which we did in the end and it was amazing. It was better.
Philipp H: We sometimes have the situation where she almost takes control and she’s thought about the topic already before me. Other dads have told me this as well, because I just haven’t thought about it yet, but I don’t feel I’m included in finding the solution, right? So, she just kind of takes over, and more often than not she right anyways, which is fine. So, that’s the first part of your question, or the answer.
Philipp H: So, you need to work out for yourself, within your own context in your relationship, how you make a change.
Elian Wiener: And Philipp, you mentioned something when we were chatting yesterday that really resonated with me. It was, we’ve seen so many and we’ve heard so many stories about women in a workplace, for example, the subtle slights against them and almost seeing … It’s like death by a thousand cuts, where they are made to feel inferior, but in very subtle ways. But very little is told about how the opposite works with fathers and men in fatherhood.
Philipp H: Interesting, yeah. Interesting topic. There’s a word for this against women, it’s called, mansplaining, so a man explaining something in a derogatory manner, talking down to a woman. I was wondering if there is something like dads-bashing or something.
Philipp H: If you Google parenting, Amazon does not perceive parenting as gender-neutral, Amazon’s algorithms are not so stupid. You find a lot of books on dads, again , this is just a point that there’s nothing for dads … A lot of books for mums, sorry. On dads, there’s dad jokes and surviving pregnancy and dads … It’s really weird. The dad handbook of how to make a nappy with a towel and some duct tape in a stadium.
Philipp H: In a way, society is … Well, the global narrative is flawed, I think, around dads. So, “Oh, you can’t leave the kids with dad.” Of course, you can. It will just be a little bit different, and it’s not always to be a competition, you know? Dads do it differently, fine. That’s also important for the kids. It’s not that one thing’s better than the other.
Elian Wiener: Yeah. I mean, sometimes men just have a different way of doing things, to women. I guess, when it comes to parenting and fatherhood it’s sometimes not necessarily accepted that that can work.
Philipp H: Yeah, but more often than not, it does work. Again, it can also work together. So, rather have a good conversation around it. I try to be very open around this, obviously with mine I feel very strongly and I’m a very passionate dad, and I want to be involved and I want to be at home and I want to spend time. So, I want to be involved in the decisions too, and I voice that.
Philipp H: But it’s a constructive conversation. My wife also, she doesn’t know. She’s like, “Oh, wow,” and, “I always just assumed.” Because that’s how society is. If you fall into a traditional role situation, more often than not you probably even discuss so much.
Elian Wiener: Yeah.
Philipp H: That’s just how it works.
Elian Wiener: So, let’s just go back a few steps. Did you take five kids camping?
Philipp H: No, I took the twins only.
Elian Wiener: Oh, okay.
Philipp H: No, the babies stayed here and they had a lovely time with my wife and her parents. They’re here at the moment. And Maya and Lena, the twins, we went camping, we burnt some marshmallows, we planted a tree, we looked at the ancient forest, it was amazing.
Elian Wiener: Yeah, I think you can’t underestimate that sort of time spent and what it means for kids growing up.
Philipp H: Yeah. This is like time that dads spends. We were like, I didn’t even change their clothes. They were dirty and full of mud and it was fun, you know? And that’s important time. I didn’t fabricate this, it’s just how it went. Okay, sure, here in the tent and it started to rain, of course, at night, but it was super-cool.
Elian Wiener: Okay. We spoke about how we can take individual responsibility for our own lives about changing this narrative and the situation around fatherhood, but as you mentioned earlier, it’s not that easy always because the perception of society and the expectations of men don’t always align with that situation, for fathers who want to be more involved. So, as a society, then, a broader society, whether it’s in the workplace, or at government level and policy, what do you suggest there?
Philipp H: You’re right. It has a lot of different, let’s say a lot of different forces need to join in order to make this change. So, there is a change on policy level that’s required, as we discussed.
Philipp H: For instance, parental leave should at least be equal because it takes the whole negotiation away from the dads, and the mums, by the way, at the workplace. It’s not even an option, if I don’t take parental leave, my wife can’t take parental leave. That’s not going to happen. So, companies will understand. That’s one thing. So, policies around this kind of stuff, and tax incentive.
Philipp H: Currently, for instance, in Germany people are incentivized in terms of their taxing structure. What tends to happen is that the person who’s already making a little bit more money will probably continue working, and because women are underpaid, they’re at a disadvantage in the workplace … By the way, largely so to a large extent because, “She’s going to be pregnant at some stage, right? Are we really going to put her in that position?” Oh, that’s a problem.
Philipp H: So, this change also needs to happen towards women. They need to be treated more fairer in the workplace, which helps that again, because now, if the child comes she might just as well become the person who goes to work more. By the way, also both people can work, right?
Elian Wiener: Yeah.
Philipp H: I had another interesting chat with a guy who makes wooden surfboards. He used to be in the wine business, he used to travel all the time. Suitcases and travel abroad and sell wine on a large scale. Wawa Wooden Surfboards. Amazing guy, super nice. His wife’s a surgeon. So, she goes and works mainly, they have kids and he is the stay at home dad, if you want, because he sorts out the kids and then he goes to his workshop. That model works just [crosstalk 00:22:50]-
Elian Wiener: It works for them.
Philipp H: Of course, it works for them. Amazing. It’s her thing, you know? She wants to be a surgeon.
Elian Wiener: Does he say he has any sort of blowback from friends or colleagues?
Philipp H: No, no, but I think the deep south of Cape Town is not the word.
Elian Wiener: That’s true. We are sitting in Kommetjie at the moment where people are a lot more relaxed about that kind of thing, right?
Philipp H: Yes. So, no, he doesn’t, but he’s also a carpenter. He works with his hands, he’s a artist, right? He makes amazing wooden surfboards and he’s very much … He brought out a gin, he’s now doing the best, I think the second best selling gin in the country and he’s a great entrepreneur. That’s just how he operates, he makes it work in that sense.
Philipp H: He doesn’t go to the office. Like I don’t go to the office. If I had to go to the office my whole life would work very differently. I would have to leave the house at six o’clock to dodge traffic, I come back home at seven o’clock, more traffic. The kids will be sleeping, I’ll see them on the weekend. That’s a problem for me, so I don’t want that.
Elian Wiener: Yeah. I think it comes back to what you mentioned earlier, is that it’s so ingrained in us that, as men, we take our affirmation from our position as a provider.
Philipp H: Oh, yeah.
Elian Wiener: It’s just hard to shake that.
Philipp H: And it feels great to be successful in business and to … It also comes to status, right? It comes with a lot of status. If you’re successful in business, you’re running your own company, you have staff, you control growth, you’re winning these great projects, you make decisions, of course that’s appealing.
Elian Wiener: There’s so much recognition of people who do that, and of men who do that. Whether it’s awards or titles, or whatever it might be. Of course. Who wouldn’t want to be recognized? Whereas, being a great father, where does that recognition come from?
Philipp H: Yeah.
Elian Wiener: You might get a pat on the back from your wife, maybe. You’re certainly not going to get it from your kids, we all know that, right?
Philipp H: Yeah, yeah. Well, hopefully, if you teach them right.
Elian Wiener: Or long enough.
Philipp H: Teach the right values. But, for instance, to that point, Warren Farrell, he writes about this topic in his book, in The Boy Crisis, and there’s some passage where he goes, it’s obviously very normal to say, “Thank you, mummy, for cooking,” but no-one ever says, “Thank you, daddy, for buying this food,” or, “For providing the money to buy this food.”
Philipp H: A lot of dads feel not appreciated in their role as dads. That, I think, is something to just notice. It’s not a generalization, I’m not saying everybody has this situation.
Elian Wiener: No, although I can definitely attest to that.
Philipp H: Yeah. I don’t know, I think it’s a very valuable topic and I think we should start to speak about it more and I think that’s where the change will come from. So, if we change the global narrative around this topic, everybody benefits.
Elian Wiener: So, that brings us to, tell me about your project?
Philipp H: Okay. What I’m doing is I’m speaking to these unique dads and I’m asking them to share their experience, right? There are people who have very different models on how they live their life. Pierre de Villiers, I did session with him. He literally stays on a hut in Scarborough. You can’t live more away from society, I think. Where they are I think they call them Scarbarians.
Philipp H: 35 years ago, when he had his children, he decided … Well, they decided, she’s also an artist, he’s also an artist and a surfboard shaper, they want to home school and they don’t want to chase money. So he basically said he reduced cost so he didn’t have to chase money. That enabled him to spend, basically, his children’s lives with them. That’s how he puts it, right?
Philipp H: So, 10 years ago he didn’t have electricity in his house. So, they were really, really reducing cost and he taught them other things, like hunting and fishing and surfing and reading the weather and that kind of stuff. So, that’s a interesting model to look at.
Elian Wiener: Yes.
Philipp H: Another model is, yesterday I did Andrew Wilson, he works at Pricewaterhouse Cooper, and is very different model, right? He very much sees himself as a provider. He also has triplets and a single child, very close together, also. He’s a bit further down the line, they’re 11, but he’s very much a businessman, a successful [inaudible 00:27:26]. He used to be at Standard Bank before and he’s head of digital.
Philipp H: He also said he made the change of taking a local role from versus a global role before and it changed his life because now he’s more involved. But anyways, he’s more on a business side of things, but very much in tune with the family.
Philipp H: Warren Rustand, you know him, he ran big companies as a CEO, $2.6 billion. He listed a few times, he’s worked with presidents of the United States. In fact, he was secretary of the President. He’s got seven children and 19 grandchildren.
Philipp H: When you speak to him, amazing … We did a session, amazing businessman, but he will very much tell you, lifestyle first. So, if you can’t do your job, this is what he’s told me, if you can’t do your job from nine to six, do something different because you’re doing the wrong work, you know? This time is so valuable. But, he’s still very much a successful business person.
Philipp H: I’m talking to athletes, like The Iron Cowboy, James. He’s here at the moment doing the Epic, by the way. He did 50 Ironmen in 50 consecutive days in 50 different American states.
Elian Wiener: That’s right.
Philipp H: Crazy. The doctors told him, “You can’t do this, you will die.” So, what he did, he stopped going to doctors.
Elian Wiener: I’m always interested in guys like that, how they balance that kind of venture with their family.
Philipp H: So, what people don’t know is he took his family with-
Elian Wiener: That’s wonderful, hey?
Philipp H: He has five kids and his wife, and the kids basically did the whole tour with him in the camper van.
Elian Wiener: Incredible.
Philipp H: His daughter actually ran the last stretch. So, there was a four kilometer stretch at the end of each race that was public, so anybody could join in on that race, on that run, [inaudible 00:29:16], and she did, I think 30 out of the 50 with him. And he said, very much because she was there waiting for him at the four k mark, he didn’t quit. It was his last excuse, “My daughter is going to be waiting, I’m continuing.”
Elian Wiener: Yeah, I love that because sometimes I find these adventurers, or people that set out to do these epic sort of endeavors, can land up being quite selfish, and they can do it at the expense of their family. So, to hear that kind of story, I think it’s fantastic.
Philipp H: It’s fantastic. So, what I’m trying to do is, I’m just showing these different stories. I’m collecting these different stories from these different men. I want people to hear this and lend for yourself whatever appeals to you.
Philipp H: So maybe there is something in what Warren says about his family mission and vision statement that he worked out really, really clearly and very specific and with intent with his family that you want to lend, or maybe there is something about reducing costs in terms of expenditure of the month so you have more time for your kids from Pierre. Or maybe there’s something around, I don’t know, gearing your job in a sense that allows you to spend time with the kids.
Philipp H: It’s not about telling people what to do, it’s really about learning from experience.
Elian Wiener: Yeah. Maybe just to wrap up with, from your experience, five young kids, what would you say to fathers out there?
Philipp H: Yeah. I think … It’s a good question. The most important thing is to spend time with the kids and to spend quality time. To really be intentional around how you spend the time because it’s so short.
Elian Wiener: Yeah. I mean, that’s really what it comes down to. It’s simple, right? But tough to do.
Philipp H: Simple but not that simple. Yeah.
Elian Wiener: It’s like what Warren Buffet says about investing. Investing is simple, but it’s not easy.
Philipp H: No, it’s not easy.
Elian Wiener: Philipp, thank you so much for today. Really fascinating chat. Lastly, just tell us how can people listen to your podcast?
Philipp H: Currently the project lives on my site, and that’s called Philipp, P-H-I-L-I-P-P, double P. One L, double P, hyphen Hartmann, H-A-R-T-M-A-N-N, dot D-E. So, philipp-hartmann.de. It’s called Being Dad.
Elian Wiener: Perfect. Thanks Philipp.
Philipp H: Thank you.
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